The Cloud Gambit Podcast: Cerbos CEO Emre Baran Talks Startup Growth & Shares Cerbos Insights

Cerbos’ CEO and Co-Founder, Emre Baran, recently appeared on The Cloud Gambit podcast, where he shared his journey from co-founding Yonja, Turkey's largest social network, to leading Cerbos. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in entrepreneurship, tech innovation, and scalable access control solutions. Emre's extensive experience in building and scaling successful startups provides invaluable insights into the challenges and triumphs of the tech industry. The episode offers a deep dive into the strategic decisions behind Cerbos and explores the future of authorization management.

Key Highlights

Early Beginnings and Yonja

Emre discusses how he and his brother foresaw the potential of social networks in the early 2000s, leading to the creation of Yonja. This platform quickly became Turkey's most trafficked website, leveraging the burgeoning trend of online photo sharing.

Transition to Google and Qubit

Emre's journey continued at Google, where he witnessed the growth of e-commerce and the need for personalized customer experiences. At Qubit, he further explored these ideas, helping retailers understand and influence customer behavior.

The Genesis of Cerbos

Frustrated with the repetitive task of building authorization logic, Emre co-founded Cerbos to provide a scalable, efficient authorization solution. He highlights how Cerbos addresses a critical gap in the market by offering a product that "just works," allowing developers to focus on core product features.

Challenges and Solutions in Authorization

Emre delves into the technical intricacies of Cerbos, explaining how it delivers fast, secure, and scalable authorization. Cerbos’ unique approach ensures that the solution can be integrated into various environments, from cloud-native to on-premises setups.

Cerbos PDP (Open Source) and Cerbos Hub (Enterprise)

Emre emphasizes the importance of open source in building trust and fostering innovation. He introduces Cerbos Hub, a new solution that provides centralized management for Cerbos instances, enhancing policy administration and security.

Transcript

Host: Emre Baran is the CEO and co founder of Cerbos, an authorization management solution helping software companies implement and scale fine grained access controls. In this discussion, we start with Emre's experience co founding and operating Turkey's largest social network in the mid 2000s, and work our way to the present as we dig into how Cerbos gives developers a scalable experience for access control that just works.

Emre, welcome to the show. How are things going today?

Emre: It's going really well. Thank you very much. Thank you for asking. How are you?

Host: I'm doing well. As we just sort of talked about, I woke up this morning and my eight year old was making pancakes. So I got to sit down to a nice hearty breakfast on a Tuesday. So yeah, good, going good.

Emre: I hope it wasn't too much of a clean up afterwards. Making is the easy part, cleaning up. Just like code, writing the first piece of code is the easy part, making it clean is the hard part.

Host: Yeah, exactly. Operationalizing things. The day two is always, always the challenge. It seems with everything. So Cerbos is based in the UK, but you don't live in the UK. Do you?

Emre: I recently moved away from UK, but we are a completely remote company. We have employees from New Zealand to all the way to Seattle around the world. World the long way around the globe, I guess, not through the Pacific. So we are fully remote and fully asynchronous.

Host: Awesome. Good deal. Yeah. I love to hear that. I'm in a similar situation where we have a headquarters in San Jose, but the rest of the company happens to be remote. So yeah, it's awesome. I love it. So are you I think as far as your start with your tech journey, You know, how did that kind of start?

How did you get into technology and, you know, sort of land in this? Space of really building some awesome startups.

Emre: Yeah. I was classically, I guess, trained, initially trained in economics, and I found myself doing a summer internship two summers in a row in an investment bank. And I found myself actually automated my automating my job by writing Excel macros, learning, you know, how to write Excel macros, how to, you know you know, do a couple of things in Excel, record, take a look at the VBA code, figure out what it was doing and then reverse engineer from there to whatever else I needed to do back then.

Internet was very limited in terms of code and things availability of things. So, and then after my second year at school, I decided to also study computer science and ever since I've been working in software and throughout my career in so many different companies and so many different environments, I actually found myself writing the authorization codes, authorization logic in the code, and it's always.

Just enough authorization to get by, by the requirements, but never good enough to be future proof and scalable. And after we concluded with, with my last company and I was looking for challenges to address, and this is actually one of those things that stood out where, you know, in one of the companies, we had to rewrite our authorization logic and authorization layer three times to By the pure virtue of the requirements at the time and us not having to spend too much time on software infrastructure and very much so focusing on customer features.

And that moment, you know, when I was looking for all those challenges, you know, authorization stuck out. This is one piece of code that we can spend months or years writing and perfecting, but it's never the core thing for your software core. You know, value driver, yet it's a very important one where no, you know, no software developer wants to spend too much time on it, but everybody wants to have a very scalable and extensible version of it.

So we decided with my co founders, we decided to very much so focus on providing that as a software infrastructure so that no software developer in the future has to go through that pain of having to build their authorization layer.

Host: Yeah, and it is, it's definitely painful everything to do with identity and access management and really keeping things secure, you know, it's, it's.

No, it's not an easy task. You, you actually, you have a pretty awesome pedigree of building, you know, sort of a track record of successful startups and not just launching successful startups, but I think getting the timing right, which is sometimes is equally important is the right thing at the right time.

And I don't know if I ever will talk to anyone ever again that has successfully launched both a social network and an awesome authorization software platform, but can you, can you talk about your experience originally with launching Yonja, was it?

Emre: Correct. So, um. It's of course, there's a little bit of a luck involved in this and how, you know, having to come across something and recognizing its potential.

But, you know, that's one thing, recognizing the potential. And then it's another thing, the world also seeing the way, the way that you see everything. So Yonja was back in 2003, and these were the early days of Friendster and Myspace where. You know, not many people knew, but, you know, to all full credit to my brother, he actually saw it's exponential growth, exponential growth potential.

And he said, this is going to be huge. The world probably needs more than one of these and let's go build a friend, sir, for Europe. And. I was living in the U. S. at the time, he was living in the U. S., we actually built and launched it with a bunch of our friends in Turkey as our initial group of people. And little did we know at the time, it was about, you know, social networks actually grow around the initial group of people you launch them with.

But you know, the timing was right in a sense that, The, you know, Internet was becoming more and more popular. Everybody was you know, doing emails and online presence, et cetera. What was also becoming popular at the time was uploading photos to the Internet, uploading, being able to take photos with your digital camera and uploading them, which had an immense Immense effect on social networks growth, because at the time when we were looking at the volume of traffic, about 48 or 46 percent of all of our traffic was people going and browsing their friends friends photos, right?

So that kind of led to The growth of Yonja that's, you know, turned into people finding their old lost friends, high school friends, or finding people who they kind of knew but they didn't and they, you know, one of the things that we provided at the time was being able to show you the graph. How are you related to this person?

Who do you know in common? You know, the six degrees of Kevin Bacon. In effect and how, and then that turned into a great driver for people dating as well, because nobody wanted to date a complete stranger and everything else. And then we built a business model on top of whatever crossed the line from social network into dating made those features into premium.

And that ultimately led to success of Yonja, which became. The most trafficked website in Turkey. It captured about, you know, 30, 40 percent of youth in Turkey. And then eventually we exited that to the leading ISP within within Turkey. So then, you know, I went to Google, I worked at Google for a while.

And one other trend that we saw at Google was two things we saw at Google. One was The growth of e-commerce AdWords and analytics and people wanting to be able to understand their traffic and then be able to actually deliver personalization to that, because one of the trends that we've seen in AdWords was people are spending more and more money.

You know, for clicks, bringing traffic onto their site, but eventually all of that plateaued and suddenly the conversion rates started plateauing because all the, all the landing pages, all the e commerce pages were pretty generic that people came. It was zero application of who you are and why you're there or how many times you've been there before.

And I'm based on that, giving you a personalized experience. I always looked at this as a similar thing as like a good smart website should be like a very good shopkeeper, right? And who knows how many times you've been there before? Which aisles did you look at? What are you on the brink of buying?

What have you purchased before? What are you most likely to buy based on all that experience? And we were trying to digitize that. And that basically coincided with the big data explosion. And at the time Hadoop was made open source, basically on top of the Google's MapReduce whitepaper. Hadoop made a lot of these calculations easier.

JavaScript was actually also on the up. So we were able to actually build a business at Qubit, where we were collecting clickstream data, and we were able to, Store and process all of that data to make sense out of it. And that that was again, a good timing with the market where available technology was.

Possible to adapt to a commercial product that people were, we were wanting. And very similarly with Cerbos, you know, authorization or externalized authorization is not a new concept. Back in 2004 or so, Oracle had a product like this, but it was Oracle. It required you arm and a leg and you're first born to sign off, to be able to get a contract, to be able to try their product.

It was slow. Relatively slow. It was all Java, etc. And then one thing that we see is, you know, when we look at software's history, there's always been decoupling of core components out to vendors or to additional things where, you know, people building software don't have to build that entire infrastructure.

They can take it off the shelf, implement it, and very much so focus on their business layer. All right. We've seen, we've seen this with databases. We've seen this in security. We've seen this with communication protocols and communication messaging tools. We've seen this with payment tools. Each one of those core things have been decoupled, but when we looked at.

Authorization that decoupling hasn't been that well two reasons. One was performance of this, and the second one was it's very hard to find a nice line between authorization and business logic. And at Cerbos, we did that well, we, we basically decided, we started with what would the authorization API look like if we were to just purely implement authorization by the API, what, what is that?

And we came up with our check API, which says, can this principle do this action to this resource? And the answer is allow or deny. If a developer actually implements that API, then all of the rule sets can be offloaded to. Those people who drive the business requirements. And that coincided with Kubernetes uptake, so that actually enabled us to be able to very efficiently build this engine and be able to actually deliver in customer's own environment.

So Servos, contrary to common, you know popular choices right now, Servos is not a software as a service that runs on the cloud. That you can actually access software is a binary that we can deliver in so many different ways to run in your own environment, but it runs very efficiently. It runs in your environment.

It's very fast and it's very secure and scalable in a sense that as your traffic goes up, it automatically scales up and down. And that basically became. You know, we're riding the wave of what authentication was able to do because prior to authentication, nobody was thinking about how can, you know, doing the identity verification on the internet.

Authentication, thanks to JWT tokens, et cetera, popularized that. So we are now taking a bite at the next step of the security chain after authentication, being able to do authorization and as an external entity to your software application. Sorry for the rolling the thing, but it's ultimately three careers that actually linked to each other.

Host: Yeah, that's really interesting. So, yeah, I mean, I remember back to the social media thing, like, I remember that was definitely the right timing. So I remember when I first started doing anything on the internet, it was kind of like blogging at first. And then this whole thing happened, like you were talking about, oh, you can update a picture or upload a picture, and then you can have friends.

And I remember, like, in my mind at the time, I was like, wow, this is the greatest thing ever. This is, this is amazing. So going past that. So you, you went to Google straight from. Yonja? Yes. Is that right? Yes. Okay.

Emre: I went to business school in between while I was working at Yonja, but yes.

Host: Okay. And then Qubit, which, so the way that you described it is kind of like a, kind of like understanding, influencing and driving customer demand sort of product in a sense for e commerce.

Emre: Yes, for customer service. So it's ultimately personalized experience on your e commerce site. Right. Understanding who's there and why, and working with the merchandisers, working with the marketing teams, delivering them either whatever agenda that the retailer is trying to push or the best customer service a user can have based on their prior interactions or based on their current demands, current needs.

Host: Understood. And then from there so Qubit exited the market. Right. Got acquired. And then from there you went on and founded or co founded Surboss in 2020,

Emre: 2021, March 2021 in the middle of COVID, which kind of leads led us to be fully remote and asynchronous. Because we had no other choice. We, we couldn't have an office at the time.

Host: Yeah. And I want to key in on something you were sort of talking about with sort of the developer experience, if you will. But the, I guess the point being like, you can go out and have a team build a thing, build all these different things, or you can like strategically make the decision to buy certain products.

For developers, so they can focus more on building the differentiated product features, you know, the drive, the value that make the organization money. Is that sort of correct? And as it pertains to Servos.

Emre: Exactly. I mean, we, we see servos as part of the service software infrastructure that you need to have in place in order to be able to write your first line of code that actually differentiates your product that actually makes your product your product.

So, you know, authentication doesn't make your product any different how you have people log in unless you invent a whole new novel way of authenticating your database. Right. You know, potential, unless you're into very high volume trading or very specialized AI, or data retrieval databases, a database, messaging frameworks payment processing.

These are all necessities that you need to have in place to get things done. But your software. We're all building or software you're building or any SaaS application is building is about solving a business problem and part of that is that that's you know, mainly the business logic of how do you handle a business problem and Everything else is just an auxiliary thing to enable those things.

And

Host: so kind of not to get too off topic, I guess, but some really awesome projects out there are open source, obviously. And I think Servos is licensed under Apache 2. 0 you know, but. I guess open source at its core is open source, but then building a business on top of it you know, and having sort of a paid service, you know, atop the open source, you know, that makes things even easier.

Why, why is this such a successful strategy in your opinion?

Emre: It's, I believe it's very, it's, you know, part of the PLG strategy, right? For product led growth. And what is really product led growth is product led growth is enabling people to be able to use a product or a free version of the product to just get a sense of what it actually achieves, what it actually can help with.

And once the user gets a sense of it and what it can do, then everything else becomes an upsell. And open source is, has many other benefits. Let's not just, you know, focus on the PLG thing. Open source gives, number one, a sense of, two, two different senses of security to people who are adopting it. First sense of security that it gives is this product is yours to own, if the company behind it goes away, if you find any bugs and nobody else is fixing it, you're kind of in control of being able to fix that.

And then the second part is a little bit more specific to Cerbos case, where security is paramount. And nowadays, you know, Cerbos is part of your security infrastructure. And by architecture, Cerbos is. You're probably running at the heart of your network, way past all the fireworks, way past all the, you know, validation things.

You want to make sure what you're, whatever you Binary or black box you're running in there is not actually a black box and it's actually it's not doing anything that it shouldn't be doing. So open source also gives people an ability to be able to inspect that and have a peace of mind. Awesome. So that drives the open source portion of the business.

And then usually businesses have built additional features on top of this. So when you cross the chasm from a developer need or from a simple company need into enterprising, there are a bunch of other use cases start coming into it's like all the corporate requirements start coming into play. And many businesses who build on, you know, commercial open source solutions usually tend to build all of those features.

As a premium solution, and many organizations are happy to pay for it because it actually solves their, you know, corporate or enterprise complexity.

Host: Awesome. Yeah. Great. So that's, that's an awesome awesome sort of response. And you know, that sort of brings me to do you, I guess, I mean, you probably hear tons of feedback from, you know, technologists that have adopted Servos, you know, and that I know that at least when, you know, the startup I work for, like, whenever I hear good feedback, it like motivates me, it like fills that gas tank up and I'm just like plowing ahead with, you New ideas and new things.

But do you ever hear anything in particular from your, your customer base, you know, as far as like positive feedback that motivates you and helps encourage and, you know, Adapt and, you know, mature the product.

Emre: Should there two camps of feedback? One of them is very positive and it's great to hear.

Very motivational. Unfortunately, it doesn't help us much with further product development. And that feedback is. Hey, we don't have to look at it anymore. We don't have to touch it. It just works great. We essentially focus somewhere else. I mean, it is the best thing to hear when people give me like nothing to say it works, it's support, it does whatever it's supposed to do.

It scales up. It's like, it does everything that's on the tin and thank you. So that's obviously a very good, as you put it, the fills the gas tank up and gives us motivation to keep doing. And, you know, we only wish more people can actually hear that. But I guess the downside of that feedback is it's it's not, it's not explicit in terms of how it does it and what it does. And then we also hear a lot of you know, specific feedback on how it actually helped businesses save time. How the, you know, they have actually, whether, you know, They've done, they've tried to do something like Cerbos in their prior businesses or in the current one and how long it took them and how Cerbos is freeing up that time so the developers can actually focus on other things.

Recently, we published a case study with a bank where they had their own internal layer of authorization that they've replaced with Cerbos and Cerbos runs so efficiently compared to that, they're saving about quarter. A quarter of a million dollars per year in just computing costs. So these are all great pieces of feedback that we hear and.

You know, we're always looking to spread the word on

Host: awesome. So, I mean, the way that it, you know, one of the, I think with the outcropping of newer startups, especially even though startup that I work for today, sort of gives you a single way for an area of technology, a single way to do that across maybe the clouds across on premises, across all the, the important areas to, to the corporation that's buying the product.

And I would say that like, you know, while we do have like direct competitors, like in the space, like I think our biggest competitor at this point is like cloud native and the idea that you can just build it yourself. Do you see sort of cloud native is a, is a big competitor for Cerbos?

Emre: Yes and no.

So number one, let's, let's just go back to Cerbos and its premise, right? Cerbos provides you an authorization service. And in order to run the authorization service as fast and as efficient as possible, it needs to run as close to your code as possible with zero network time, because, you know, our true.

competitor is a developer writing a library or a function to actually do these checks. So we tried to make Cerbos as competitive as possible to that in terms of processing times, in terms of simplicity and its SDKs. But we also reckon, so at the end of the day, Cerbos is a developer tool and developers choose where their software is going to run.

Right, so we, and as a developer tool, we need to be omnipresent no matter where their code is. So we've actually architected Cerbos in a way that it can run in a, you know, in a binary, as a binary in a you know, bare, on a bare metal machine. As a library, as a Kubernetes service, I'm sorry, as a binary Kubernetes service, as a, Sidecar and Kubernetes.

We made Cerbos, Cerbos architecture has some opinionated, you know, design where Cerbos is actually stateless. So we actually have a lot of customers running Cerbos on AWS Lambdas, where they can actually spin up an instance in and out. So in our vocabulary, cloud native is number one, being able to.

Deploy in any of these environments, no matter where they run, whether they run on a cloud provider or whether it's running on an on premise, but we're, you know, the version of service. That's not cloud native. It's not cloud as software as a service, right? It's not running as a service in cloud where you can actually access that from anywhere from anywhere in the world where services, right?

And that is by design because it's Authorization, unlike authentication, needs to be super fast. When you're authenticating with a piece of software, when you are logging in, whether logging in takes 100 milliseconds or 500 milliseconds, nobody really notices, you know, that thing's spinning a couple of more times because once you're logged in, you're logged in, that token is cached.

And once that token is cached, you can validate it anywhere and your identity is never changing. You're all, you are who you are and, you know, very rarely your roles might be changing if somebody's updating and not in real time, however, with authorization. Every request is pretty much unique. There's a very high cardinality, and there's almost zero room for caching things.

Alright, so we want to make sure, we wanted to make sure that, because every request is unique Cerbos doesn't hold any cache, and Cerbos needs to be actually giving you an answer immediately. Every API call you have, every interaction with your product, every click, every data rendering, anything needs to go through this authorization layer.

And that needs to be super fast. If the authorization layer is for each one of these checks, taking, you know, 50 milliseconds, suddenly your entire rendering, your end customer experience is impacted. You know, you can, it's almost akin to your every database query, adding in 10 milliseconds to every database query.

So that's why we do not run serverless in the cloud, which is a slight I wouldn't call it a problem, but it's a slight obstacle for very early stage startups who are not used to running any infrastructure and they need actually a service running in the cloud. very much. But what we find is usually those are, those tend to be hobbyist projects.

The moment anything like that gets, starts getting serious, there's actually a infrastructure that comes into play and serverless can actually run in those environments. The other thing we call cloud native from a cloud native perspective, Cerbos was born on the cloud native age. So what does that mean?

We actually integrated in all the tooling that comes with cloud native, whether it's tracing, whether it's telemetry all of those, you know, fine tools and technologies are part of Cerbos from day zero. Gotcha.

Host: Okay. So by, I mean, by the time this episode launches, I guess you will have made Cerbos hub like generally available.

From, from beta. So first of all, congratulations. That's great. And so do you want to talk a little bit about that? Like, first of all, what is Cerbos hub versus the, the open source core component for Cerbos?

Emre: Yes. So if we are going with industry terms, Cerbos open source is Cerbos PDP, is a policy decision point.

This is the module you access with the information. Can this user do this action to this resource or can the service, can the subject do this action to this resource? And it tells you allow or deny. Service BDP is what interprets the policies, what consumes the policies and interprets the incoming requests and gives you a decision.

And that's our open source product that's generally available. The we are on, I believe, 37, 38 iteration of the releasing that, and it's pretty stable. And that works great for developers who are willing to take that and implement it and manage it themselves so they can actually, you know, we give all the usual tooling for that.

We give a playground online ID where you can write policies into it. You can write policies and, and, and test them. Simulate different scenarios. We give a unit testing framework that you can actually use to validate your policies before updating them so that you don't end up shooting yourself in the foot with a incorrect update.

And that's available to developers. Take it Apache 2, freely available. Go. What we have once we released Cerbos Cerbos ADP open source, one of the things that we've seen is, you know, what are the additional things that large enterprises or larger companies need when they're using Cerbos? And we actually identified a couple of pain points that every company was going through, and that's what built Cerbos Hub and Cerbos Hub is Well, what it is, it's a policy administration point.

It's not a cloud hosted of servos. It's a control plane for all your servos instances. So now, rather than running each one of your servos instances yourself and implementing a pool model of policies into them, we now have a central hub where we can Enable developers to be able to compose their policies, test them and build them collaboratively Google Docs style.

So it comes with an online ID that is you know, that does all of your corrections. Every time you type runs all of your unit tests in the background, you know, lets you know if you're. Stepping in the wrong direction right away, so you don't have to build, deploy, test and then have a much longer cycle.

It connects to all of your instances. It has, you know, it monitors them. It has statuses of each one of them.

In real time, streams all of your new policies. So the instances all at the same time. So one of the problems with the open source where because it's a pull model and you can actually define, let's say 10 seconds or one minute as a refresh interval for a policy update, you know, each one of those are open source ones are capable of checking for updates and updating themselves, hot updating themselves.

But if your refresh intervals one minute, and if you're running more than one instances, One instance. Now you have about a minute of discrepancy potential among all your instances. So serverless help turns that into a push model. When every instance is connected, it can You know, take your policies, run CI on them, make sure they actually compile and pass all the tests and when they do, in real time, synchronize all of your instances at the same time.

And additionally does two more things. One is it builds a WebAssembly version of your policy. So now you can actually deploy serverless PDPs. And what we call them as an embedded PDPs in environments where you cannot run a binary, i. e. a web browser, i. e. a Versal, Netlify kind of environments where you can make the checks again using the same SDK, but you don't have to do a full round trip to a binary that's running somewhere.

And the other feature is actually as we are releasing Cerbos into GA, we're now also releasing Cerbos logs into beta and Cerbos logs are collecting all of the log data from all your instances and be able to actually expose them to security teams because because Cerbos is behind every decision. It means server's logs actually contain information about who tried to do when, whether they were allowed or not, and why, which policy actually enabled them to do, which is a very valuable piece of information for security teams.

And now imagine all of your stack, whether it's back end, front end, mobile application, batch processing actually has these logs in a uniformed way. And now you can actually access them. So with serverless hub release, going to GA, we're actually also releasing serverless logs into beta.

Host: That's great. And I know that, of course, this is targeted towards making developer experience like so much better.

Cause this is just a hard, you know, it's a challenging problem to solve. But it almost sounds like it's the second persona would be that of, you know, your security engineer, that's really like when you have to go back and you have to figure out what happened. It takes so long in certain circumstances because just, yeah, it's just a pain to know exactly what you just said, who did what, when they did it, you know, with what account, like all these different things, you know, so having a usable, a consistent way of, you know, garnering that information and doing something with it.

That's huge. That's a big, a big win right there.

Emre: Yes, absolutely. And, you know, there are two parts of that story. One is writing the new requirements and distributing them. So that again, makes security engineers life easier. So now your roles, the role definitions and the actions that map to roles can be deployed independent of the application.

And then. The, the backside of that story is now who did what, whether they were allowed or not, and there are actually many other use cases after we release logs into beta that we're working on to make the security use cases better, which make policy composition and security implementation easier and faster.

Host: Awesome. Well, yeah. Best of luck with the launch. Yeah. And just it's, it's amazing. You know, you launched this during COVID, which is a huge, you know, seeing where you are now and knowing what the climate was like during COVID, obviously for startups, it wasn't easy. For, you know, anybody, obviously, but yeah, good luck with the launch.

Looking forward to it. And yeah, where can, so where can folks find you on the internet if they want to connect?

Emre: So I am on Twitter. I still call it Twitter, not X yet, but although I believe the domain name already switched over to x. com. My Twitter, my Twitter handle is Emre and on LinkedIn, I'm Emre Baran.

I'm sure the listeners can find these in the show notes and Cerbos as Cerbos.dev.

Host: And I love the website by the way. So there's many, many bad websites out there and the Cerbos website's very well. It's clean, the colors, just finding things. It's very apparent exactly what you need to know and not much more.

And so, yeah, kudos on it, on a good website.

Emre: Thank you very much. We still think there's a lot more we can improve, but it's been always designed with developers in mind first, because they are the ones who actually take this product and implement without developers. I don't think we'd be anywhere and us coming from a development background are.

Our mission number one is to make life easier for them and in turn they can make life easier for the rest of the people in their organizations.